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| Thomas Zupko
Sit down Rog and feel free to just move anything that's in your way. It's basically all shit anyway.
Roger T. Pipe
If I came into a neat office at a porn company, I think I would get scared.
Thomas Zupko
That is a real shark on my desk though.
Roger T. Pipe
For those who can't see, it is a real shark, but it's in a jar, not just lying on Zupko's desk. Last time we covered your career pretty well, so let's start where we left off with that one. At that time, "In the Days of Whore" had just come out. Right after that came "Ass Clowns" right?
Thomas Zupko
Yes, and I'm still waiting for your review of that one.
Roger T. Pipe
Waiting?
Thomas Zupko
Yeah, in the "Ass Clowns 2" review, you said that you needed to go back and give Ass Clowns the full treatment. You said you saw the beginning of it and had to put it aside until you were ready. I thought that was funny, but I'm still waiting.
Roger T. Pipe
What we need to do with your movies is just cut out the really good parts of very movie and we'll have a great two hour movie.
Thomas Zupko
That was the first thing I did after Days of Whore. At that time, I was doing a big feature, then a smaller movie. It was a much simpler movie, people either loved it or they hated it. In High Society, they listed their top ten movies and I had two on that list, which they said had never happened before. They had Days of Whore at 9 and Ass Clowns at 2. I couldn't believe that. To me, there is no way Ass Clowns is a better movie than Days of Whore, but they loved it.
Roger T. Pipe
AVN nominated Days of Whore for quite a few awards last year.
Thomas Zupko
It actually won two awards at that show; it won something at XRCO and was video of the year in Adam Film World.
Roger T. Pipe
What did it lose to at the AVN Awards?
Thomas Zupko
Dark Angels.
Roger T. Pipe
Dark Angels sucked.
Thomas Zupko
I'm not trying to say I'm anything special because I'm not, but I don't think you can compare the two movies and say that Dark Angels is a better movie.
Roger T. Pipe
With all the shit that has gone since the last award show, are you expecting to get any nominations this year?
Thomas Zupko
No chance. We are persona non gratta at AVN. We get no reviews, no press and our name is not even in their list of companies in the back.
Roger T. Pipe
How has that affected you guys?
Thomas Zupko
This is for everyone who worships at the alter of Paul Fishbein; our sales have actually gone up since we stopped spending an obscene amount of money in their magazine.
Roger T. Pipe
How is that possible? You don't show up on the official sales charts.
Thomas Zupko
I'll say this for the record; Paul Fishbein prides himself on the idea that AVN is the official trade magazine where everything is accurate. He swears that his charts are accurate. If that's the case, then how do we go from top five on their charts to not even showing up? How is it possible when our sales are better? Imagine if you were Sports Illustrated and you had a problem with Art Modell, the owner of the Baltimore Ravens. In every issue, you erase all mention of the Ravens and even say that they didn't win the Super Bowl. How can an objective trade magazine say that Extreme doesn't exist? It's fucking crazy. It all comes back to how corrupt AVN is, how much you grease the hands of Paul Fishbein and we just stopped playing that game.
Roger T. Pipe
Where is the ad money going now?
Thomas Zupko
We're advertising in Hustler and that is doing well. We started with some generic ads, but we're ramping up to the kind of full scale campaigns we used to run in AVN. We're getting a circulation of three million and it's doing well.
Roger T. Pipe
So if people want to see reviews of Extreme movies, they need to hit web sites that cater to actual porn fans.
Thomas Zupko
You know, I want to say this again, in all honesty the two review outlets I always look to are Hustler magazine and Rog Reviews. I'm not just saying that because you're here. I think those are the most objective reviews and the most entertaining as well. The movies are looked at and judged on their merits and I appreciate that. We all love working with you Rog and we're going to do all we can to get you movies, PR and whatever you need.
Roger T. Pipe
Girls. I need girls.
Thomas Zupko
(He laughs) Of course, lots of girls. It's not a bribe if the review is already written.
Roger T. Pipe
That's true.
Thomas Zupko
If it's done after, then it's a reward, not a bribe. Besides, I know you. You wouldn't move a 2 to an 8 just because of a girl. Maybe move a 7 to an 8, but you have standards.
Roger T. Pipe
After Ass Clowns you did "The Abyss" which I saw and really liked.
Thomas Zupko
I did get slammed across the board for the long subtitles at the beginning, which you mentioned in your review.
Roger T. Pipe
You had this really long block of text over a visually interesting montage. It was impossible to watch and read at the same time. The Gauge scene in that movie is probably the best sex scene you've ever shot and the story was interesting.
Thomas Zupko
Thank you.
Roger T. Pipe
Would that have been eligible this year?
Thomas Zupko
No, that one was released in October of last year, so it was part of last year's batch.
Roger T. Pipe
Not that it would matter this year anyway.
Thomas Zupko
Of course not. There was actually a memo sent to every employee at AVN that we are not to be mentioned.
Roger T. Pipe
Do we have a copy of that memo?
Thomas Zupko
No we don't. However, I did get a call from a performer, I don't want to mention any names, but word is that performers who work for are doing so at great risk to their future nominations. I think that's unbelievable.
Roger T. Pipe
They control the awards; I guess they have the power.
Thomas Zupko
We want to get some major reviewers and do our own awards. The only thing that makes the AVN Awards worth anything is the glitz. Everyone in this business is looking to be a superstar, so we just have to have that kind of a show. We're working on a show for 2003 that will bring credibility and glitz to a porn awards show. We're going to have the major magazines, the glitz and the objectivity that is lacking now. Best of all, no one affiliated with Extreme will have a vote, so it will be honest. You, of course, will be one of the objective reviewers chosen to vote.
Roger T. Pipe
Back to your movies. You had said that you felt Days of Whore was better than Ass Clowns, why do you say that?
Thomas Zupko
I just think Days of Whore is a better movie, there is more there. I found it funny that High Society picked it the other way around.
Roger T. Pipe
Ass Clowns is a better jerk off tape. Days of Whore is strong, it's well shot, the dialog and the ideas are great, but Ass Clowns is just easier to digest.
Thomas Zupko
I guess it's just hard to compare the two.
Roger T. Pipe
The Abyss was based on a Dostoyevsky novel, correct?
Thomas Zupko
It was based on "House of the Dead."
Roger T. Pipe
I have to bring this up, because of you, I finally read "Brothers Karamazov."
Thomas Zupko
Did you like it?
Roger T. Pipe
Remember how I said you owed me 2 hours of my life from Anal Ball? Add six months to it for that recommendation.
Thomas Zupko
But the Grand Inquisitor passage is brilliant.
Roger T. Pipe
I can't argue that, but that was twenty pages out of seven hundred.
Thomas Zupko
I'm expanding your mind Rog.
Roger T. Pipe
Then came Ass Clowns 2, which wasn't the one with Taylor St. Claire was it?
Thomas Zupko
No, Taylor was in Ass Clowns 1. She had two scenes in that one. It's funny, after the worked with Luciano for the first time in that movie. She came up to me afterwards and said she something important to talk to me about so I wasn't sure what to expect. Taylor whispered to me, "I only want to work with Luciano from now on." She was like a little schoolgirl with a crush.
Roger T. Pipe
So what were the highlights of Ass Clowns 2?
Thomas Zupko
That's the one with Santa and the Reindeer, the Rob and Tommy scene and the hillbilly scene, with Surewood.
Roger T. Pipe
I don't know, Brian Surewood as a hillbilly is a little too close to home.
Thomas Zupko
It was like typecasting with Brian and Mr. Pete. I believe that when it comes to dialog you have to get to know the actors. I know Brian can play a hillbilly because it's not a reach. If I wanted him to play Beethoven, then we would have a problem, but an inbred retard is not even a stretch. Then Mr. Pete is an inbred, retarded hillbilly so it was perfect. (He has to stop laughing for a moment.) Seriously, those guys are my best friends and I love them both.
Roger T. Pipe
Which of the two Ass Clown movies did you like better?
Thomas Zupko
Ass Clowns 1 was darker with the worms and all. Ass Clowns 2 was really silly, with drunken Santa. I prefer darker movies.
Roger T. Pipe
Then came "Whore's Life" and you said that Lizzy Borden had to take over at the last minute on that one?
Thomas Zupko
Taylor was supposed to be the star in that one, but we had a little personal falling out. I gave Lizzy 11 pages of dialog and she did what she could with it in the short time she had. The performances could have better, but Whore's Life is what it is.
Roger T. Pipe
Would you say that is your least favorite?
Thomas Zupko
I would say it's my least favorite yeah.
Roger T. Pipe
Least favorite of the Extreme movies or overall? There was that Pool Party movie.
Thomas Zupko
That was pretty awful. We don't even count the pre-Extreme stuff, so Whore's Life is my least favorite.
Roger T. Pipe
Shades of Hades was the next release and I reviewed that one not long ago. Very interesting movie, brilliant actually.
Thomas Zupko
Thank you.
Roger T. Pipe
You said that was a more personal story than you usually do.
Thomas Zupko
It was more or less based on my life and I put everything into that one. I seriously considered committing suicide after that movie. It was such a powerful experience for me that I wondered where I could go from there. It took a long time to recover. I took a couple of weeks off and came back cleansed.
Roger T. Pipe
I know I felt like committing suicide after watching "Anal Ball."
Thomas Zupko
(He laughs) Fuck you Rog.
Roger T. Pipe
We know that AVN won't be nominating Shades of Hades, but you have to feel good about that movie in terms of an award-caliber product.
Thomas Zupko
A lot of people who view porn on a different level have liked that movie. Mark Starr said that it could possibly be the greatest porn ever made. He's a literate guy like you are and he appreciates art. I really think that some of the writers at AVN would have loved it.
Roger T. Pipe
It's certainly the kind of movie that usually wins a lot of awards.
Thomas Zupko
I'm proud of it.
Roger T. Pipe
That brings us to the latest and currently most controversial movie in your catalog. Let's give the readers a bit of background. During the Seymore Butts obscenity trial, you took exception to some things that Assistant DA Deborah Sanchez said about Extreme and how your time was coming.
Thomas Zupko
Yeah, I read those comments and it struck me as blatant hypocrisy. When you look at all the shit that's going on, to focus on porn seems absurd to me. I was just about to shoot The Attic when I read that, and I changed it all around to make a First Amendment statement.
Roger T. Pipe
So you weren't out to trash America?
Thomas Zupko
If anything, it's a tribute to America. That we have the right to do something like this is the beauty of our country. After what happened last week in New York and Washington, I think that people are going to see it differently and perhaps not understand what I was trying to say.
Roger T. Pipe
It was shot before the World Trade Center bombing and there is some symbolism in the movie that might be seen in a new context that is more disturbing.
Thomas Zupko
That's right. It's going to be disturbing in a different way than I intended when we made the movie a few months ago. My heart goes out to the families of the victims. If anything, this has galvanized us as Americans and it supercedes all other problems.
Roger T. Pipe
Do you think people will be able to see through their emotions and get the point you are trying to make?
Thomas Zupko
I hope so. I was trying to point out some hypocrisy in America, but it's still porno. People are going to have to look at it and realize what I was trying to say.
Roger T. Pipe
Which is?
Thomas Zupko
That attacking us, attacking porno, given what American has done to other races and peoples is hypocrisy. It was my intention to bring that out.
Roger T. Pipe
The events of September 11th are going to change how people see this.
Thomas Zupko
I'm sure that it will.
Roger T. Pipe
It's in stores now. Have you heard from any store owners who want to send it back?
Thomas Zupko
Not yet, but it only takes one person to be offended by something to get something started. If someone has a problem, then that's fine.
Roger T. Pipe
What do you hope people will get from this movie?
Thomas Zupko
I hope people will look at it in the context of when it was made and not now. There are a lot of things that will offend people now and that was never my intention. If I had that movie in production right now, I wouldn't shoot it the same way. We are all Americans and I don't want to detract from that. The only thing that would still like to say about the Government is that this tragedy sort of proves my point. Something like this, that took years to plan and involved hundreds of people can happen. They can kill thousands of people and we didn't have a clue. On the other hand, we can spend time and resources being worried about four fingers going into a pussy somewhere in the Valley. Hopefully, this will put pornography and how detrimental it may or may not be, into proper perspective. Pornography is part of the American tapestry and we have to deal with that.
Roger T. Pipe
You're getting up on that soapbox Zupko.
Thomas Zupko
Since you bring that up, let me point this out. Religious zealotry is responsible for all of the evils of society going back thousands of years. What we have in this country is a partial separation. We say we have separation of church and state, but most of our laws are based on the Judeo-Christian morals. Once we truly separate and just realize that we are humans, we are here and we die, then we will have a much better society. When these guys are shouting for Allah, they are not different than religious zealots in this country shouting down pornography or abortion. It's not exactly the same, but it's the same ball park. We need to grow up and make religion private. Don't let it effect our lives. It's all a fairy tale and we're very close to what they did. Look at Jerry Fawell, or our Attorney General John Ashcroft who allegedly was anointed with hot oils and his father speaking in tongues on the Senate floor. He said that dancing was sinful. That's fucking scary and it's a short step away from what they did at the Trade Center. Let's really separate church from state.
Roger T. Pipe
This is your time to rant, but let me interject. On the other hand, when a religious bigot like Fawell says what he said this week, most people, Christians included, say 'shut up, you're an idiot.' In the countries you're talking about, when someone says that gays are at fault, the people just round them all up and execute them. There is a big difference.
Thomas Zupko
I agree, but we have to keep it in mind and remember not to go down that path. What matters is human beings working together day to day and not worry about what consenting adults do.
Roger T. Pipe
After The Attic, which was another dark movie, you did something a little different.
Thomas Zupko
I did The Adventures of Mammary Man and Jugg Woman which is something different. After Shades, I was really depressed and I came up with this crazy idea. I just saw Brian Surewood with a big set of tits and started cracking up. I was really into comic books growing up, so I pitched it to Rob. He loved it and I forgot about it. When I came back from my vacation, Rob had already run an ad for it. I did it, it is a light hearted romp based on the old Adam West Batman series.
Roger T. Pipe
Do you think the hard-core Zupko fans are going to be disappointed?
Thomas Zupko
Some might, but if they don't like Mammary Man, then chances are they didn't like Shades of Hades either. The Attic is more brutal, but this is something for a new audience. I don't know if I want to be into cable at all, but this opens up that market for me.
Roger T. Pipe
There are certainly a lot of comic book fans who don't get much of that in porn.
Thomas Zupko
Well, this is potentially a ten part series if I have the strength to do it.
Roger T. Pipe
After that, you're doing a movie called The Circus. What's that about?
Thomas Zupko
It's about a girl, Veronica Caine, whose car breaks down. She's wandering and sees these bright lights. There is this picture of a circus and all these freaks. All of a sudden Bret Rockman appears. He takes her through a whole maze of sexual freaks. We've rented a whole amusement park for this one and will have six freaks on a Ferris wheel. Bret takes her through all these sexual sideshows. One is the perfect woman, the headless whore. She doesn't bitch, she doesn't complain. They throw her head into the audience, freakish shit like that. She becomes more and more aware of her sexuality and is on stage in the final scene. She fucks a four hundred and fifty pound man, an eighty five year old man and a dwarf fucking her.
Roger T. Pipe
You got Ron Jeremy, Randy West and Ed Powers?
Thomas Zupko
(He laughs) That's fucking funny. I should have done that actually. The next thing you know, another girl is on the highway and sees the pictures. Naturally, Veronica is now part of the picture. It's sort of like that last shot in the Shining.
Roger T. Pipe
That sounds like a return to what people expect from you.
Thomas Zupko
Yeah, it's going to be out there.
Roger T. Pipe
The last thing we want to talk about is the new guy at Extreme. It's not public yes, but it will be by the time I finish this. There is a new guy on the team, right?
Thomas Zupko
Yes and his name is Mr. Vegas, the artist formerly known as Kid Vegas. Before anyone starts moaning and thinking that Extreme has reached a new low, let me say this. Vegas has grown up a lot, hence the new name and he's got some really good idea. He just needs to be reined in. The stuff he has done in the past, let's face it, has sucked. If we take him under our wing and give him the kind of freedom he needs, he is going to do great things. I was talking with him and he said that before, he would want some input on his cuts, but they wouldn't let him. I think they were intentionally making them worse than they were. Not to say his movies weren't bad already, but they wanted to make them worse.
Roger T. Pipe
If you're going to make bad porno, why not make the worst porno ever.
Thomas Zupko
Exactly. We want to actually help bring him along. I think with the right direction, he could do some very good movies.
Roger T. Pipe
You and Rob and the Extreme team can be a dysfunctional foster family for the Kid.
Thomas Zupko
There you go.
Roger T. Pipe
All right, thank you very much. Anything you want to add?
Thomas Zupko
Of course there is. I want to say thank you again to Rob Black and Tom Byron for what they have done. They don't censor me or dilute my vision and for that I thank them. I'm not always the easiest person to get along with so I owe them a debt of gratitude.
Roger T. Pipe
As always, it's been a pleasure. Thanks.
Thomas Zupko
Thanks Rog.
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